Author Topic: The Telos of RPG Builds: LoD'ing 3.5  (Read 1336 times)

PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 120
  • 75%fortified v forum death as a fairness elemental
    • View Profile
The Telos of RPG Builds: LoD'ing 3.5
« on: June 25, 2017, 03:15:40 PM »
Now that I've released my D&D archives, I feel like taking a step back.

Let's imagine you are playing Game 1: Baldur's Gate. In this case you chose the Dark alliance game in the series. You've picked your elf chick and been kill the baddies for a while. You wondered about something in the beginning and rolled up a human to go check it out.

In most games, each save file is monolithic and separate. Without hacking the data you can't put your elf into your human's early game state nor your weaker human into your elf's advanced game state. Some gamer's accept this fate due to "balance" concerns, but it's not really an issue anymore for modern gaming with auto-balancing systems like that found in the Game 2: Dragon Age Origins.

In some games, you have to wait for a New Game + to restart with your tough character back into the beginning of the game. The idea was still revolutionary decades ago for hallmarks (think Chrono Trigger). Nowadays, its a fairly standard mechanic for games that actually think themselves a decent game. Balder's Gate of course has this as "extreme mode".

But remember that a New Game + still falls short of a true in-game import. Even fewer games allow a true export process to a sequel. This is a much-appreciated feature that uses tried-and-true numbers inflation to maintain balance. It helps players think they've gotten somewhere without the "start all over again" disappointment. The Dragon Age Origins Expansion allows this, for instance, and the story line is coded to adjust for this fact.

Even the above is still short of a true in-game import. Why did I mention Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance? Because it allows a true, overwriting import, even in multiplayer. This allows for all the muling item transfer goodness we've come to expect (think Diablo I & II).

But you notice as you take a look at your Elf wizard and Human archer, newly geared due to importing and in Extreme Mode, that you just don't like the options available to you. You like some of them. Going Emporer Palpatine on enemies is fun. The dancing sword is useful to help make enemies flinch even while you kite or attack. But that's it. Even your archer friend's character feels a little lack-luster. Multishot is good, and ice arrows were good. but mainly all you use is repulsion and your passives to hack threw enemies.

You look at a fighter's ability options and notice that the awful Drizzt incarnation is a mix of the main three character's ability sets. "I could do better than that," you think. And suddenly it downs on you. If you could just take a blank character, like the fighter, and swap out four or five abilities, you've have a very fun combination. But alas, your hopes are dashed because you can't do that.

Even with the two features, it does have, there is no built-in level editor so you can add that kind of system. But you don't want to make new levels or even change how the lightning looks or how much it costs, etc, like a full game editor would allow (Think Warcraft III). All you want is a system to build characters.

Da Rules (for those to lazy to click the download link in my sig)
(click to show/hide)


Speaking of Warcraft III, you realize that a third game, LoD DotA, does allow that sort of thing. It's is still alive and kicking even though DotA II has been available for years, and is in competitive play. It's pretty much the only spin-off to achieve that. Usually a new version and the migration of the e-sports scene spells the death of any game.

You are aware that Baldur's Gate is just a DnD intellectual property port to video gaming. In 3.5e you can multiclass, but then you only get the earliest abilities from the chasis. So by DnD's method, if Balder's Gate had a more linear abilities progression, maybe you'd never get Repulsion on your fighter without losing out on Fighter abilities (which you'd otherwise want). It's just not true customization.

Now you think over to DotA LoD again. You can get any ult from any hero at level 6. They are all available for level 6. They are all assumed to be balanced. No spell is assumed to be better than any other similar-level ability. Of course some combinations will be banned and there are going to be others that work together far better, but it's your job to find those.

What if you could do that for DnD? What if there was one mode that allowed a fighter to take a high level ranger's ability at a given point and only lose one equivalent high level fighter ability? Unfortunately DnD has "dead levels" which are universally agreed to be a terrible idea, much less a balancing point.

So assuming an adaption that had no dead levels (an up-shifted one, like my C8), or even just powering up generic 3e's dead levels, imagine the flexibility of being able to achieve this "LoD" mode. I'm curious if 3e would have lasted even longer the way LoD DotA has. Maybe that's something to hope for in 5e. I suspect that 5e's creators simply haven't played enough other games to learn this lesson, but we managed it in only three and a half ;)




Q: How did you come up with this?
A: I originally thought this was how multiclassing worked. Just the idea of it blew my mind. Then I realized 3e was still holding a "middle ground" between full customization and old school multiclassing: "you gain all the rogue levels if you take the xp hit for the rogue progression." It probably helped me see DotA LoD mode even before Formless in the DotA AI maps. Seriously, I had backstab + morph + omnistrike mapped out and everything.

Q: Does 3e even need this?
A: To be taken to its limits, yes it does. I think full customization haunted the creator's nightmares along with wizards in full armor. You'll notice that mundanes are significantly boosted while casters don't gain anything. If 3e started out this way, I don't think it would have been labeled 'caster edition' quite so quickly.

Q: My DM won't allow this! He can't handle my fighter being so uber!
A: It's weaker than gestalting. And I've determined that to be equivalent to at most worth 4 free LA. If your DM can't spare you 3LA, then he's basically can't DM for 3 levels higher. He might not be the most capable DM, in this case.

Q: Is this really the limit of gaming? What about homebrew for 3e?
A: For games that have build paths? Yes. Homebrew is like an entire world editor, rather than a high-powered mode for the same game. In a level editor, your mods basically become different games unless they are done very, very tastefully. Remember, that I've already released my homebrew and it is basically just an enumerated 3e game that uses the dirty trick handbook fixes along with about a hundred and fifty little, specific tweaks (most of which are just caster nerfs).

Q: How game I take a game even further?
A: You just apply the same principal: add customization features to the mechanics. The main decisions in a game is the build, but some have races or items, etc. See my racial Calculating & Comparing Racial ECL for how to say "Fine you can build any custom race using these given entries." You can do the same thing for spells, or whatever. Usually these things are more add-hoc and therefore harder to find swappable equivalency. Even something simple and cut and dry like melee weapon stats (which I've done) requires lots of analysis, but knock yourself out.
Sigh. Not again. :(