SRWd20 general discussion

[oslecamo]

This topic for discussion of my SRWd20 material.

[Fzzr]

Hey! I've been in a game using this system for some time now, it's nice to finally be on a forum where I can make an account. I'm the Super player in CKirk's campaign, so a lot of the feedback on Supers actually came from me.

Incidentally, I'm also the one running the wiki at http://srwd20.wikia.com. We're going to keep working on that in parallel to this forum, just in case. Unfortunately we never updated with wiki with Anomander's edits to Mecha Engineer, and we haven't managed to find it (the updated version) in web caches. Hopefully he'll find this place and join back in soon.

[oslecamo]

Hi there. Anomander seems to have found this site already, he just created an account but didn't post anything yet.

[CKirk]

Hi, just confirming that I'm following along and will likely keep up the feedback

[CKirk]

Speaking of feedback, I'd like to get some clarification on an Into the Danger Zone maneuver.

Squad Breaker
Into the Danger Zone (Boost)
Level: Any Pilot Class 6
Initiation Action: Standard action
Range:  See text
Target: See text
Duration: instantaneous
Save: none

When you initiate this maneuver, double your reach and perform two attacks against each oponents whitin reach with one melee weapon of your choice.

In alternative, fire a ranged weapon at a square twice. The shots explode in a burst with a radius equal to twice your pilot level. Enemies caught inside the explosion must suceed on two reflex saves with DC equal to your attack rolls. For each failed save they take damage as if struck by your weapon.

Does the second mode give you a burst with a radius of 2x PL in squares, or is it in MU?

(Also, it should be listed as a Strike, not a Boost)

[Fzzr]

A couple questions that came up in our last session:

Does Enable count as a turn all the way up to the level of incrementing Attacker, Predict, etc? GM flipped a coin and ruled yes. Going by this line: "If you've fought against an enemy (either you or it attacked the other) for at least 2 turns in succession..." it seems like it could mean either round or player turn. A layer deeper: if yes, does the *enemy* getting another turn (not just attack) increment Attacker etc. for you if they attack you?

Related to that, Yell reads "Your mecha gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls and DR. If you have Attacker, Defender or Predict, you count as having been fighting all of your opponents for an extra round. Those bonus last 1 round." This raised a question: Does this mean it only adds a virtual round to your Attacker etc. for those you with whom already have one, or does it essentially give you the first round of Attacker etc. with every enemy on the field? This didn't matter in our session so we didn't make a ruling on it.

As an aside, Yell should read "Your mecha gains...", "These bonuses last...", and "Guardian" instead of "Defender".

[oslecamo]

Speaking of feedback, I'd like to get some clarification on an Into the Danger Zone maneuver.

Squad Breaker
Into the Danger Zone (Boost)
Level: Any Pilot Class 6
Initiation Action: Standard action
Range:  See text
Target: See text
Duration: instantaneous
Save: none

When you initiate this maneuver, double your reach and perform two attacks against each oponents whitin reach with one melee weapon of your choice.

In alternative, fire a ranged weapon at a square twice. The shots explode in a burst with a radius equal to twice your pilot level. Enemies caught inside the explosion must suceed on two reflex saves with DC equal to your attack rolls. For each failed save they take damage as if struck by your weapon.

Does the second mode give you a burst with a radius of 2x PL in squares, or is it in MU?

(Also, it should be listed as a Strike, not a Boost)

Squares, fixed, thanks!

A couple questions that came up in our last session:

Does Enable count as a turn all the way up to the level of incrementing Attacker, Predict, etc? GM flipped a coin and ruled yes. Going by this line: "If you've fought against an enemy (either you or it attacked the other) for at least 2 turns in succession..." it seems like it could mean either round or player turn. A layer deeper: if yes, does the *enemy* getting another turn (not just attack) increment Attacker etc. for you if they attack you?

Enable is based on Zeal and Zeal's text is "you may take another turn worth of actions". Aka only actions, no other turn-based passive benefits are gained/lost. I could've sworn I had made that explicit already since it was brought up in my campaign but seems like it went down with the old forums. Added clarification again.

If another effect that actually grants a full turn comes into play then yes it would count for Attacker and similar effects.

Related to that, Yell reads "Your mecha gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls and DR. If you have Attacker, Defender or Predict, you count as having been fighting all of your opponents for an extra round. Those bonus last 1 round." This raised a question: Does this mean it only adds a virtual round to your Attacker etc. for those you with whom already have one, or does it essentially give you the first round of Attacker etc. with every enemy on the field? This didn't matter in our session so we didn't make a ruling on it.

It would give you the first round of Attacker with every enemy on the field.

As an aside, Yell should read "Your mecha gains...", "These bonuses last...", and "Guardian" instead of "Defender".

Fixed too.

[Fzzr]

Shiriko Device Reads: While this option is active, your attacks can hit a pilot directly. The damage you deal isn't absorbed by their mecha. If you deal a killing blow you automatically recover all your spent Kappowa. This device lasts 3 rounds after activation.

How do this and other abilities that directly strike at the pilot interact with Einst drones?

[Fzzr]

Heads up: the save progression on Prodigy Pilot is messed up: Presumably Fort should start with 0 and Will should start with 2.

Edit: Also "Cherised Champion" should be "Cherished Champion".

[oslecamo]

abilities that directly strike at the pilot interact with Einst drones?

Einst drones don't have pilots, so simply don't interact.

Heads up: the save progression on Prodigy Pilot is messed up: Presumably Fort should start with 0 and Will should start with 2.

Edit: Also "Cherised Champion" should be "Cherished Champion".

Fixed, thanks.

[Fzzr]

I would like to propose a slight nerf to Area Melee and Zero Reach. RAW they both effectively apply a multiplier to any speed buff, eg. Accel would add 60 to 90 mu. I propose instead that the multiplier only be applied to base speed. The reason I bring this up is I've been exploiting this ruthlessly in our campaign to the point where even I think it's broken.

Area Melee would read:
If this appears in a melee weapon, you can move in a straight line up to twice your base speed, ignoring any opponents in your way for purposes of movement, without causing attacks of opportunity. Any buffs to speed increase the range after the base speed is multiplied. Roll to hit against all opponents you passed through. If your movement would cost EN or other resources, you must pay for it as normal. If an opponent is bigger than you, you need to pass through the middle of their position to affect them with this.

Zero Reach would read:
If your main weapon is melee, its reach is doubled. If it's a melee Area weapon, you can multiply your base speed by three instead of two while calculating range while using the Area option. If your Main Weapon is ranged, it no longer provokes attacks of opportunity for being used in melee.

Also, for the purposes of Prayer and Belief, what constitutes a status effect?

[Fzzr]

Sorry for the repeated multi-posts. More questions came up in our latest session.

1. Can builtin weapons be disarmed? Some builtins are clearly being "held", but others are integral to the body of the mecha, like a Super Robot's fists.

2. We'd like to suggest a buff to Twin- and X-linked energy weapons. As we currently read it, each copy of an ammo weapon comes with its own store of ammo, so you can fire linked ammo weapons just as often as you could fire a single one. However, EN weapons don't seem to have the same benefit - each attack with a linked energy weapon would cost as much as a single copy. For example, 3-linked heat rods would cost 90 energy to use. If that's not how it's supposed to work, please clarify the rule. Either way, this is the new text we propose:

Twin-Linked: If you have two weapons of the same kind with this property you can attack with both as a standard action without penalties or at the end of a charge (if they're melee weapons in the case of a charge). If you perform the full attack action with them, instead of your regular routine you can fire each weapon once for each regular attack you would get with a single weapon. A set of weapons with both the Heavy and Twin-Linked property can both be fired as a single fullround action, all the other Heavy restrictions apply. If you use a Spirit that would benefit only your next attack like Strike or Valor, you may use a pair of Twin-Linked weapons and both attacks gain the Spirit's benefit. Twin-linked weapons that cost energy to use only cost as much as it would cost to use one. Using only one of a pair of twin-linked energy weapons still costs as much as using a non-twin-linked version of that weapon.

The last line there is to prevent twin-linked/X-linked being used to get lots of really cheap attacks from weapons that otherwise cost energy. If you think it's fair for them to have that option, feel free to leave out the last sentence.

Thanks!

[oslecamo]

I would like to propose a slight nerf to Area Melee and Zero Reach. RAW they both effectively apply a multiplier to any speed buff, eg. Accel would add 60 to 90 mu. I propose instead that the multiplier only be applied to base speed. The reason I bring this up is I've been exploiting this ruthlessly in our campaign to the point where even I think it's broken.

Area Melee would read:
If this appears in a melee weapon, you can move in a straight line up to twice your base speed, ignoring any opponents in your way for purposes of movement, without causing attacks of opportunity. Any buffs to speed increase the range after the base speed is multiplied. Roll to hit against all opponents you passed through. If your movement would cost EN or other resources, you must pay for it as normal. If an opponent is bigger than you, you need to pass through the middle of their position to affect them with this.

Zero Reach would read:
If your main weapon is melee, its reach is doubled. If it's a melee Area weapon, you can multiply your base speed by three instead of two while calculating range while using the Area option. If your Main Weapon is ranged, it no longer provokes attacks of opportunity for being used in melee.

Good ideas, done.

Also, for the purposes of Prayer and Belief, what constitutes a status effect?

Anything with a duration other than permanent or instantaneous.

Sorry for the repeated multi-posts. More questions came up in our latest session.

1. Can builtin weapons be disarmed? Some builtins are clearly being "held", but others are integral to the body of the mecha, like a Super Robot's fists.

Yes. It represents they being simply torn off or crippled to the point they're not viable weapons anymore.

Half the point of people using giant robots in media is that you can have all the "gore" you want whitout getting too creepy. And less suspension of disbelief because people won't ask too many questions if a robot is able to keep fighting without an head and/or half their torso missing, whereas that would be plain strange for your regular fleshy humanoid.

2. We'd like to suggest a buff to Twin- and X-linked energy weapons. As we currently read it, each copy of an ammo weapon comes with its own store of ammo, so you can fire linked ammo weapons just as often as you could fire a single one. However, EN weapons don't seem to have the same benefit - each attack with a linked energy weapon would cost as much as a single copy. For example, 3-linked heat rods would cost 90 energy to use. If that's not how it's supposed to work, please clarify the rule. Either way, this is the new text we propose:

Twin-Linked: If you have two weapons of the same kind with this property you can attack with both as a standard action without penalties or at the end of a charge (if they're melee weapons in the case of a charge). If you perform the full attack action with them, instead of your regular routine you can fire each weapon once for each regular attack you would get with a single weapon. A set of weapons with both the Heavy and Twin-Linked property can both be fired as a single fullround action, all the other Heavy restrictions apply. If you use a Spirit that would benefit only your next attack like Strike or Valor, you may use a pair of Twin-Linked weapons and both attacks gain the Spirit's benefit. Twin-linked weapons that cost energy to use only cost as much as it would cost to use one. Using only one of a pair of twin-linked energy weapons still costs as much as using a non-twin-linked version of that weapon.

The last line there is to prevent twin-linked/X-linked being used to get lots of really cheap attacks from weapons that otherwise cost energy. If you think it's fair for them to have that option, feel free to leave out the last sentence.

I understand your feeling, but the point of weapons that need energy to attack is precisely that-to make it less efficient to spam them than bringing multiple ammo weapons.

Besides in the case of heavy melee weapons, all of which cost energy to swing, if I applied that change there would be little reason to not use them always twin-linked or x-linked. More often than not you would end paying less energy for more damage even after taking in account DR being applied multiple times.

Anyway clarified that yes, when you attack with two weapons that cost energy to swing, you must pay energy for each of them.

Thanks!

No problem.

[yuweacurtis]

Btw, how can you get a Super Robot ranged in-built weapons.

[Fzzr]

Be a tank (Transform Upgrade) is the only way I know of.

Which reminds me: I suggest that the one weapon you keep in fighter mode be converted to ranged infinite-ammo as well. It's silly, but if you think about it the description currently puts you in a fighter that can only use melee!

Edit: only way for a *pure* super. Cross-class battleship could make the main cannon a Main Weapon for example.

[oslecamo]

Yeah, either multiclass or Transform.

My draft for Missile Massacre would also have at least one Stance granting you in-built missile weapons.

Added option to change melee weapon to ranged with Fighter.

[Fzzr]

Came up with another exploit and a bunch of questions while updating my Super Robot.

Zero Swing reads:
When you perform a martial strike that normally wouldn't allow you to use a weapon, you may make one attack as a free action against any and all strike targets with your main weapon, provided your main weapon isn't Heavy and the targets are in range.

If you combine that with something like Unlimited Blade Works, which can easily target more than a dozen 5mu cubes, it reads as allowing the ranged builtin weapons we were just talking about to fire at virtually anywhere on the map as a free action.

Example at level 12, this one on a pure super:
Main Weapon
Transform (Tank) - main weapon cannon range is 80mu
Zero Weapon + Zero Swing + 2x Zero Range - main weapon cannon range is now 160mu
Unlimited Blade Works as favored +3, effective PL 15. 7d12 per victim, max range 450mu

This lets you place 15 blade cubes for 30 energy, each one doing 7d12 to occupants of that cube. Then you get to fire an area ranged weapon (which has infinite ammo and costs no energy) at each square. Area ranged hits everything along that line, so you could fire at something with as many main weapon attacks as you can line up blade cubes behind it. At 100 energy with 20EN regen a turn (easily attainable) a super robot can make 15 attacks a turn for 10 turns.

If you want to get even crazier, does a cone attack like Chest Blaster technically attack all the squares in the cone? Because my chest blaster is currently at range 65mu...

Anyway exploit mode aside, I recommend this change to Zero Swing:
When you perform a martial strike that normally wouldn't allow you to use a weapon, you may make one attack as a free action against any and all targeted creatures with your main weapon, provided your main weapon isn't Heavy and the targets are in range.

The intent being that only if the maneuver targets one or more specific creatures would the feature activate. This reduces the number of maneuvers that work with the feature significantly, but I think that's a fine balance point.

Vaguely related question. Zero Weapon reads:
You must have Main Weapon to pick this. While you only attack with your main weapon, you gain +3 AC, Saves, DR, Trip, Disarm, Bullrush, Grapple. If you attack with any other weapon (or don't attack at all for 1 round), you lose those bonus until you spend a turn attacking with it and no other weapon. For every 4 Super Pilot levels you have the bonus increase by another +3 and you can pick one of the following options, none can picked more than once unless noted otherwise. For each size category the super robot is away from medium, you count as having 4 Super Pilot levels less for the purpose of this ability.

1. Do maneuvers that use weapons keep the combo going if you only use your main weapon?
2. Does using Zero Swing to make an attack with your main weapon when using a strike that would not normally use a weapon keep the combo going?

Some other questions related to Unlimited Blade Works:
1. Can Strike be used to prevent the saves? If so, does it apply to all the saves on the first turn, or just one of them? (I have no reason to think it would last until the second turn, but if I'm wrong, please say so).
2. Presumably the first round of save-or-take-damage happens immediately, when does the second round worth of saves occur? My guess was at the start of the user's next turn, but I'm not sure.
3. Does the damage activate if a creature passes through an effected cube?

Unrelated:
Rout the Army says "make a full attack" - does that mean that a single full attack (say, firing a pair of twin-linked heavy weapons) occurs, so the ammo/energy cost is not multiplied by the number of targets?

Thanks again! Hope you don't mind the weird exploits and questions I come up with. Bug testing is part of my day job, so I sometimes can't help but think of every possible way to abuse something.

[oslecamo]

Came up with another exploit and a bunch of questions while updating my Super Robot.

Zero Swing reads:
When you perform a martial strike that normally wouldn't allow you to use a weapon, you may make one attack as a free action against any and all strike targets with your main weapon, provided your main weapon isn't Heavy and the targets are in range.

If you combine that with something like Unlimited Blade Works, which can easily target more than a dozen 5mu cubes, it reads as allowing the ranged builtin weapons we were just talking about to fire at virtually anywhere on the map as a free action.

Example at level 12, this one on a pure super:
Main Weapon
Transform (Tank) - main weapon cannon range is 80mu
Zero Weapon + Zero Swing + 2x Zero Range - main weapon cannon range is now 160mu
Unlimited Blade Works as favored +3, effective PL 15. 7d12 per victim, max range 450mu

This lets you place 15 blade cubes for 30 energy, each one doing 7d12 to occupants of that cube. Then you get to fire an area ranged weapon (which has infinite ammo and costs no energy) at each square. Area ranged hits everything along that line, so you could fire at something with as many main weapon attacks as you can line up blade cubes behind it. At 100 energy with 20EN regen a turn (easily attainable) a super robot can make 15 attacks a turn for 10 turns.

Anyway exploit mode aside, I recommend this change to Zero Swing:
When you perform a martial strike that normally wouldn't allow you to use a weapon, you may make one attack as a free action against any and all targeted creatures with your main weapon, provided your main weapon isn't Heavy and the targets are in range.

The intent being that only if the maneuver targets one or more specific creatures would the feature activate. This reduces the number of maneuvers that work with the feature significantly, but I think that's a fine balance point.

Added clauses to prevent area weapons getting more targets and also clarified that the targets need to be in range of the Zero weapon itself. Plus anti-cleave clause.

And also added energy costs to tank/fighter ranged conversions just to be on the safer side. +5(+10 if Heavy) shouldn't be too much if you're just making a few attacks but in the case of spam will stack up fast.

If you want to get even crazier, does a cone attack like Chest Blaster technically attack all the squares in the cone? Because my chest blaster is currently at range 65mu...

Yes, Chest Blaster was exactly what I had in mind when designing the ability in the first place, although I considered only a melee Zero weapon chopping at nearby targets.

Vaguely related question. Zero Weapon reads:
You must have Main Weapon to pick this. While you only attack with your main weapon, you gain +3 AC, Saves, DR, Trip, Disarm, Bullrush, Grapple. If you attack with any other weapon (or don't attack at all for 1 round), you lose those bonus until you spend a turn attacking with it and no other weapon. For every 4 Super Pilot levels you have the bonus increase by another +3 and you can pick one of the following options, none can picked more than once unless noted otherwise. For each size category the super robot is away from medium, you count as having 4 Super Pilot levels less for the purpose of this ability.

1. Do maneuvers that use weapons keep the combo going if you only use your main weapon?
2. Does using Zero Swing to make an attack with your main weapon when using a strike that would not normally use a weapon keep the combo going?

1. Yes.
2. Yes. It doesn't matter what trigger you're using to attack with the weapon as long as you're swinging/shooting it around.

Some other questions related to Unlimited Blade Works:
1. Can Strike be used to prevent the saves? If so, does it apply to all the saves on the first turn, or just one of them? (I have no reason to think it would last until the second turn, but if I'm wrong, please say so).
2. Presumably the first round of save-or-take-damage happens immediately, when does the second round worth of saves occur? My guess was at the start of the user's next turn, but I'm not sure.
3. Does the damage activate if a creature passes through an effected cube?

1. They're simultaneous so they would all count as first, and no wouldn't last to the second turn since it would be a new batch of saves.
2. My intent was end of turn after the initial batch of saves, clarified. More of a way to threaten an area, otherwise it's forcing two saves before the other dude gets to move normally.
3. Only if they end the turn inside.

Unrelated:
Rout the Army says "make a full attack" - does that mean that a single full attack (say, firing a pair of twin-linked heavy weapons) occurs, so the ammo/energy cost is not multiplied by the number of targets?

Correct.

Thanks again! Hope you don't mind the weird exploits and questions I come up with. Bug testing is part of my day job, so I sometimes can't help but think of every possible way to abuse something.

I quite thank you too, since another pair of eyes always helps find fresh bugs.

[CKirk]

Some other questions related to Unlimited Blade Works:
1. Can Strike be used to prevent the saves? If so, does it apply to all the saves on the first turn, or just one of them? (I have no reason to think it would last until the second turn, but if I'm wrong, please say so).

1. They're simultaneous so they would all count as first, and no wouldn't last to the second turn since it would be a new batch of saves.

Just to clarify, Strike only works on the first attack with maneuvers like Multi-Target, right?

[yuweacurtis]

So are the mentioned firearms in the classes any particular ones?

Shouldn't Magic Reactor's energy cost only apply to spells cast through the Mecha?

Can a sentient robot cast spells if its Arcane?

Is Great One restricted to once per option or once period?

Shouldn't the Arcane Super Robot get less upgrade points?