Author Topic: Epic Feats Pre-epic  (Read 201 times)

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Epic Feats Pre-epic
« on: June 15, 2017, 01:40:01 PM »
Epic feats tag should just be "prereq: level 10", like legacy champion.

While browsing Complete Adventurer, I noticed that epic improved skirmish is decidedly un-Epic in terms of power, and makes more sense as a "normal" feat for Scouts to pick before level 21, removing the prerequisite and [Epic] tag. Which made me wonder: which Epic feats do you think could be allowed before level 21?
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 Online ketaro

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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #1: March 02, 2017, 11:35:07 PM »
Every feat that requires a feat from PHB but aren't tied to class features. Also all the stat boosting feats.
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 Offline Hades

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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #2: March 03, 2017, 10:26:14 AM »
+1
Since Spiritual Lion Totem Barbarian gains pounce at level 1, I think that Dire Charge (also inferior to true pounce, since it works on the first round of combat) could be fine at non-epic.

Even feats like Improved Stunning Fist (+2 DC on stunning first) or Improved Death Attack are not too umbalanced in a non-epic game, imho.
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 Offline Garryl

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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #3: March 03, 2017, 01:17:55 PM »
+1
Quote from: Hades on March 03, 2017, 10:26:14 AM
Since Spiritual Lion Totem Barbarian gains pounce at level 1, I think that Dire Charge (also inferior to true pounce, since it works on the first round of combat) could be fine at non-epic.

Even feats like Improved Stunning Fist (+2 DC on stunning first) or Improved Death Attack are not too umbalanced in a non-epic game, imho.

Heck, Improved Stunning Fist, Improved Death Attack, and Improved Arrow of Death already exist in non-epic (minus the stacking for repeated selection). It's called Ability Focus.

Actually, a lot of epic feats have comparable non-epic feats. Not that they all should be made non-epic, but a lot of them should.
Additional Magic Item Space: Extra Rings gives you +2 ring slots, but it's also pretty close to epic-level itself. It has a CL 12 prerequisite and has another feat as a prereq (Forge Ring) that itself also has a CL 12 prereq. This epic feat lets you double up on other slots, too. Seems appropriate for an epic feat.
Armor Skin: Dodge is laughably weak. Even when people buff it to apply to every attack, it's nothing amazing.
Damage Reduction: 50% more effective than Roll With It's DR 2/-. Still nothing amazing past about 10th level.
Energy Resistance: Improved Energy Resistance is a racial feat that increases an existing resistance by 5. Even at 10 it would probably be unimpressive.
Epic Inspiration: Song of the Heart, but repeatable.
Improved Spell Resistance: Awaken Spell Resistance.
Multiweapon Rend: Two-Weapon Rend. The non-epic version of the feat, not the epic one.
Reflect Arrows: Technically, Snatch Arrows only lets you throw back thrown weapons, not all projectiles, but it's not that big a deal.
Two-Weapon Rend: It was reprinted as a non-epic feat with only slight differences.

And some other epic feats that just aren't epic:
Augmented Alchemy: Alchemical items aren't that impressive, and doubling their effects doesn't change that. If you really want them, you can just buy them from someone who can make them. They're still not prohibitively expensive.
Blinding Speed: 5 rounds/day of a 3rd-level spell. That's only half as long as Boots of Speed, a 12000 gp item.
Combat Archery: I don't think there are any feats that just remove the AoO for 3.5, but it's not infrequent among homebrew. Pathfinder has a couple.
Deafening Song: Deafened is a crappy condition that can be produced by a 2nd-level spell or a 30 gp alchemical item.
Dire Charge: As Hades mentioned, Lion Totem Barbarian pounces better.
Improved Combat Casting: Casting defensively should have been an automatic success since about level 10 if you took Combat Casting. Edit: To add to this feat's stupidity, it requires Combat Casting and 25 ranks in Concentration. Even with a Constitution of 1 (-5), you have a +24 modifier for casting defensively, enough to defensively cast epic spells even when you roll a natural 1.
Mobile Defense: This should have been a baseline part of the ability to begin with. Edit: Actually, this is the 8th-level class feature, too.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 08:08:34 PM by Garryl »
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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #4: March 03, 2017, 01:39:55 PM »
in a similar vein, a lot of regular feats, simply shouldn't be feats at all. should be racial/class feature options or maybe skill tricks.
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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #5: March 04, 2017, 06:55:25 AM »
Hell Epic Toughness can be a acceptable feat with a level prerequisite of 10th level (or make is scaling like PF/Improved Toughness even) without to much impact.
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 Offline Keldar

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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #6: March 04, 2017, 07:42:24 AM »
A better question is, other than Epic Spellcasting and the Automatic Metamagic feats, are any other Epic Feats really deserving of that limitation?  I can't think of any offhand.
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 Offline Nifft

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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #7: March 04, 2017, 12:38:46 PM »
Quote from: Keldar on March 04, 2017, 07:42:24 AM
A better question is, other than Epic Spellcasting and the Automatic Metamagic feats, are any other Epic Feats really deserving of that limitation?  I can't think of any offhand.
Spell Stowaway, maybe?
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 Offline eggynack

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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #8: March 04, 2017, 03:41:16 PM »
Quote from: Keldar on March 04, 2017, 07:42:24 AM
A better question is, other than Epic Spellcasting and the Automatic Metamagic feats, are any other Epic Feats really deserving of that limitation?  I can't think of any offhand.
Yeah, given how infrequent good epic feats are, they really should be non-epic until proved otherwise as opposed to the opposite. Improved elemental wild shape and magical beast wild shape are pretty good. Dunno how they compare to taking the already existent form adding feats, but there're some obvious pieces of utility there.
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 Offline Keldar

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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #9: March 05, 2017, 09:48:37 AM »
While we're at it, are there any non-caster feats that would be broken if not level gated?  (I.E. still having other prerequisites other than those derived from level, BAB, Base save, skill ranks, ect.)  Few feats really are that powerful if they don't create magic items or modify spellcasting.
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 Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #10: March 05, 2017, 02:30:47 PM »
hmm

if Auto-Quicken still has the 9th level spells pre-req, it's basically Battle Blessing, just way later.  Allows known action abuse.

Epic Ex.Know. blurs the original 6 types of Psions a little.
Epic Psi Focus doesn't catch up to what metamagic does.
Psi Improved Heighten, doesn't have the tricks of non-psi. EStP would save 1 feat via this, if the build is even possible.
Improved Manifestation still orders of magnitude less than recharge.
Improved Metapsi is already in CPsi as non-epic.
Improved Spell Capacity adapted, see heighten above.
Power Knowledge nice especially for non-9s, but see the EZbake Wizard.
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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #11: March 22, 2017, 05:37:20 PM »
Quote from: Keldar on March 05, 2017, 09:48:37 AM
While we're at it, are there any non-caster feats that would be broken if not level gated?  (I.E. still having other prerequisites other than those derived from level, BAB, Base save, skill ranks, ect.)  Few feats really are that powerful if they don't create magic items or modify spellcasting.
Chassis-derived prereqs are less common for feats as a large barrier. I see little value in throwing them out for feats but leaving them in for everything else. Perhaps you had a specific feat in mind.

Quote from: eggynack on March 04, 2017, 03:41:16 PM
Given how infrequent good epic feats are, they really should be non-epic until proved otherwise
I agree. I have an analysis of Epic Spellcasting here. I agree with aDMg that auto quicken at max skill ranks and spells is underwhelming when it only works on 3rd and below spells. Arcane spellsurge anyone? The still and silent ones are a joke. Spell Stowaway is weaker than share spells with a familiar since it only works on a single spell that you already have to be able to cast. Circle magic is way more powerful, even after my nerfs.
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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #12: March 26, 2017, 11:08:29 AM »
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign on March 22, 2017, 05:37:20 PM
Spell Stowaway is weaker than share spells with a familiar since it only works on a single spell that you already have to be able to cast. Circle magic is way more powerful, even after my nerfs.
Four words: Spell Stowaway (Time Stop).

Watch the DM's face when his BBEG casts Time Stop and you get your own free turns.  You can also argue that you get pulled into the same accelerated time frame.

Honestly, it's good for instantaneous or incredibly short duration buffs.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 11:10:35 AM by snakeman830 »
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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #13: March 26, 2017, 06:26:04 PM »
Quote from: snakeman830 on March 26, 2017, 11:08:29 AM
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign on March 22, 2017, 05:37:20 PM
Spell Stowaway is weaker than share spells with a familiar since it only works on a single spell that you already have to be able to cast. Circle magic is way more powerful, even after my nerfs.
Four words: Spell Stowaway (Time Stop).

Watch the DM's face when his BBEG casts Time Stop and you get your own free turns.  You can also argue that you get pulled into the same accelerated time frame.

Honestly, it's good for instantaneous or incredibly short duration buffs.

I wouldnt say that means the feat is broken, rather the spell is.

Either way this within spitball distance of Epic levels anyways.
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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #14: March 29, 2017, 01:42:01 PM »
i agree, outside the epic casting/manifesting, pretty much none of the epic feats are actually that epic.
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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #15: March 31, 2017, 09:59:06 PM »
Zook, can I get you to look at my 4 small tweaks for balanced epic spellcasting (pre-epic) thread?

Quote from: TC X0 Lt 0X on March 26, 2017, 06:26:04 PM
I wouldnt say that means the feat is broken, rather the spell is.

Either way this within spitball distance of Epic levels anyways.
Bingo. If you don't have 9ths in your game, everything becomes more balanced and epic feats in pre-epic is no exception.
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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #16: April 05, 2017, 04:20:51 AM »
Do you have a link, being on a tablet 99.99% has its disadvantages?
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 Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #17: April 06, 2017, 05:57:07 PM »
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign on March 22, 2017, 05:37:20 PM

... I agree with aDMg that auto quicken at max skill ranks and spells is underwhelming when it only works on 3rd and below spells. Arcane spellsurge anyone? The still and silent ones are a joke. Spell Stowaway is weaker than share spells with a familiar since it only works on a single spell that you already have to be able to cast. Circle magic is way more powerful, even after my nerfs.

However, if you're playing with the original Epic (book+srd) wording for Quicken, taking it the 2nd time is very interesting.  Auto-Quicken up to 6s, is delicious.

Wizard starts combat
round 1 : 9 + q6
round 2 : 8 + q5
round 3 : 7 + q4
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Re: Which Epic Feats do you Think will work Fine as non-Epic?

« Reply #18: April 20, 2017, 06:56:31 PM »
Hmm. Level 10 requirement, instead of level 20, then?

Edit: Nevermind Dragon Magaize 297 page 27 states: "Some epic feats could be feats for characters without epic levels" before listing ALL of the epic feats it adds as belonging to this category, including a feat that requires 30 ranks in a skill. Their solution is just to add prereqs that only high level characters could access.

Quote from: zook1shoe on April 05, 2017, 04:20:51 AM
Do you have a link, being on a tablet 99.99% has its disadvantages?
You can click post -> thread history, but yeah my threads are very meaty, and I understand how scrolling could be a pain. If you only use mobile, how do you look at your .pd COUGH, I mean how do you look up your seventeen-year-old, soft-cover, out-of-print primary sources?
Sigh. Not again. :(