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21
Killing enemies is expedient. Sparing them and giving them a chance at redemption or at least at giving up a life of preying on others in that particular area is more noble, but could qualify as "stupid good" depending on how realistic we play. Could there be some kind of option for non-lethal victory that isn't horrifically burdensome in terms of dealing with captives and only occasionally results in us having to fight the same dudes again (which can make for some fun story options)?

Team, are there certain themes that make you uncomfortable?  I tend to prefer the standard D&D module rated R violence, PG-13 sexuality. I know people can be sensitive about  religious/irreligious themes. Would playing an aasimar evangelisty true believer rub people the wrong way - this is of course assuming that he's got some tact? I thought it would be cool to try with the whole Luminous Order and Ebon Cabal thing.

One thing I'm sensitive about is violence toward children.  Please no graphic battles where we have to fight possessed kids or something.

I don't mean to make a big deal out of this stuff. It's just more fun for everyone if we have some kind understanding. Most of the time it's a non issue. It's just that I have played a lot of different games with a lot of different people...and sometimes it's weird...when with a little more communication it could be fun.

IC, it would definitely rub my PC the wrong way - he's seen far too much to really believe that there's redemption for those who go to war. The fact that there is "ultimate evil", as it were, in the form of demons and devils just confirms him in that belief. He's also very much on board with the whole killing aspect as a means to permanently reduce the wrong side.

OOC, as long as it's done right, I don't think it'll be a problem.
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Garryl, thanks for elaborating on the the campaign. You nailed pretty much everything I was wondering about.

My question on alignment was wondering how rigidly we followed it, how plastic it is, will we know if we're shifting.  I was thinking of a missionary char concept that encourages the common folk and seeks to subvert the lords of evil to the cause of good. Do angels fall? Do demons repent?

I know our campaign may not go that far and they're not the best classes, but I always thought it would be fun to play something like an Evangelist or Emissary of Barachiel.

Angels can become evil and demons can become good. It's rare as hens' teeth, but it happens. Heck, on the far side of the campaign setting (I really gotta get my notes in order on that), one of the major religions was formed by a group of angels and demons that made peace with each other and broke away from their eternal war.

As much as they are sentient beings, angels and demons still are, to some extent, physical embodiments of the concepts of good and evil. (Ditto for modrons and slaadi as physical embodiments of law and chaos, too, although that doesn't ever seem to come up as much.) It takes an awful lot to overcome that.

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My question on Diplomacy was more along the lines of, can I make the Balor Helpful with a sufficiently high check?

I've been focusing on maximizing Social skills and was just wondering if it's worth it.

Depends. If it's a Balor that just wants to kill you, spouting words at it isn't going to do anything, no matter how honeyed the words from your silver tongue are. But, if it's a Balor with some other motivations you can latch on to, and you know enough to figure out how to catch its attention before it's started mulching you, then there's a chance, yes. In other words, just going "I roll 92 for Diplomacy" isn't enough, you'll need to open the possibility for diplomacy first.

There isn't much in the way of diplomatic situations at the start of this module, but the second section has the potential for a bit of it, and the third section even more so. You're not going to diplomance the dungeon away, but the third section has diplomatic alternatives for almost about 30% of the encounters.

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Killing enemies is expedient. Sparing them and giving them a chance at redemption or at least at giving up a life of preying on others in that particular area is more noble, but could qualify as "stupid good" depending on how realistic we play. Could there be some kind of option for non-lethal victory that isn't horrifically burdensome in terms of dealing with captives and only occasionally results in us having to fight the same dudes again (which can make for some fun story options)?

If you can figure something out, sure. It's probably not going to be easy, especially in a world without the social infrastructure that our modern society has. Heroic medieval fantasy is still medieval fantasy.

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Team, are there certain themes that make you uncomfortable?  I tend to prefer the standard D&D module rated R violence, PG-13 sexuality. I know people can be sensitive about  religious/irreligious themes. Would playing an aasimar evangelisty true believer rub people the wrong way - this is of course assuming that he's got some tact? I thought it would be cool to try with the whole Luminous Order and Ebon Cabal thing.

As long as you don't start preaching to me IRL, we should be good. Something tells me that won't be an issue.

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One thing I'm sensitive about is violence toward children.  Please no graphic battles where we have to fight possessed kids or something.

Don't worry, we're in the same boat here. This is supposed to be heroic fantasy, not Lovecraft lite.

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I don't mean to make a big deal out of this stuff. It's just more fun for everyone if we have some kind understanding. Most of the time it's a non issue. It's just that I have played a lot of different games with a lot of different people...and sometimes it's weird...when with a little more communication it could be fun.

No problem. It's definitely good to clarify things if you're not sure everyone's on the same page.
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Garryl, thanks for elaborating on the the campaign. You nailed pretty much everything I was wondering about.

My question on alignment was wondering how rigidly we followed it, how plastic it is, will we know if we're shifting.  I was thinking of a missionary char concept that encourages the common folk and seeks to subvert the lords of evil to the cause of good. Do angels fall? Do demons repent?

I know our campaign may not go that far and they're not the best classes, but I always thought it would be fun to play something like an Evangelist or Emissary of Barachiel.

My question on Diplomacy was more along the lines of, can I make the Balor Helpful with a sufficiently high check?

I've been focusing on maximizing Social skills and was just wondering if it's worth it.

Killing enemies is expedient. Sparing them and giving them a chance at redemption or at least at giving up a life of preying on others in that particular area is more noble, but could qualify as "stupid good" depending on how realistic we play. Could there be some kind of option for non-lethal victory that isn't horrifically burdensome in terms of dealing with captives and only occasionally results in us having to fight the same dudes again (which can make for some fun story options)?

Team, are there certain themes that make you uncomfortable?  I tend to prefer the standard D&D module rated R violence, PG-13 sexuality. I know people can be sensitive about  religious/irreligious themes. Would playing an aasimar evangelisty true believer rub people the wrong way - this is of course assuming that he's got some tact? I thought it would be cool to try with the whole Luminous Order and Ebon Cabal thing.

One thing I'm sensitive about is violence toward children.  Please no graphic battles where we have to fight possessed kids or something.

I don't mean to make a big deal out of this stuff. It's just more fun for everyone if we have some kind understanding. Most of the time it's a non issue. It's just that I have played a lot of different games with a lot of different people...and sometimes it's weird...when with a little more communication it could be fun.
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Non-Arhosan Material / Re: Commander [Base]
« Last post by Garryl on July 01, 2017, 03:05:59 PM »
As I've discovered, the commander is REALLY front-loaded. I haven't looked at it that much at higher levels, although my gut says that it would be fine if it had only 1 or 2 cohorts max, if only because 3+ cohorts is just a plain old ton of actions that are still meaningful with 2/3 casting.

I'm going to be jumping around a bit in this analysis. Sorry for the disjointed thoughts. I've got a lot of them and I'm just trying to get them all out and recorded.

Okay, looking at the commander at 1st level, two front-loaded things jump out. That's a big problem, since those two things are all of the commander's class features. The end result is, in short, numbers that are too high at 1st level.
1) Auras go up to Cha bonus. This is your standard sort of frontloading that you see in a lot of classes, where you have a class feature you can dip into that doesn't deeply care about continuing with the class that granted it. The aura choices themselves have a few balance issues relative to each other, but that's a separate matter I'll address later if I remember. Some of the auras are stupidly good at low levels but just don't scale so well, and that's something I will be addressing here.
2) Cohorts. This is the other type of frontloaded class feature, and it's a bit subtler. You've got a class feature that relies on class levels for its scaling and really does need that scaling to keep up at higher levels. Its problem is that at the level it shows up, it's really really really powerful, and it doesn't drop down for a couple of levels until the scaling system catches up. Specifically, the fact that you get a full fledged 1st-level cohort at 1st-level, which the scaling formula implies to be the appropriate power level for what you should get at 3rd.



The cohort is a bit harder to evaluate than the auras. You see, auras and their effects are pretty straightforward. You're giving a bonus to your party just like it's written out. The bonus is going to start at +4 (there's no competition for stats against Charisma, so you will stick an 18 there), and it's going to increase by around +1 every 3-4 levels, give or take, with a little jump at the end when you start using tomes. Depending on your level of optimization, this could go a lot higher (ask Soro_Lost, he loves to talk about Charisma scores in the 60s or higher). The biggest problem here is that the numbers end up in a reasonable place, but just start too high. This isn't just because of the ability score-based scaling, which starts much higher than its prolonged scaling would imply, but because of what this gets applied to.

I'm going to reference the marshal class, from the Miniatures Handbook. Say what you will about the class being too weak (it is), it did have a decent sense of what sorts of numbers can go on what level of scaling. The marshal's auras are divided into minor and major.
  • The minor auras are lesser effects that don't directly impact combat power (ex: bonuses to skills) and more limited effects that generally appear with smaller bonuses, but can afford larger ones here due to being more situational (ex: bonus to AC vs. AoOs) or otherwise applying to only a subset of what they normally do (ex: bonus to a single type of save). It's not even uncommon for bonuses of these sorts to apply fully based on an ability score when found as class features (ex: a paladin's divine grace granting +Cha to all saves), but those only apply to a single character, rather than the entire party.
  • The major auras are your more generally applicable, always useful combat bonuses. This includes things like bonuses to attack rolls, AC, or all saves. Major auras have a much more limited scaling, based solely on class level. Similarly, you often see these sorts of bonuses as class features in larger magnitudes, but as with minor auras, those apply to individual characters, whereas this is a class feature that applies to each of the at least 4 people in a party.

This division of bonus categories is an important thing to note, and was one thing that the original marshal did mostly right. There's a huge difference between +4 to all saves and +4 to a few skill checks. Presently, all of the commander's auras are lumped into a single pile. With the exception of a couple that scale at reduced rates (fast healing, caster level) a couple that don't scale at all (alliance, dogpile), and a few that provide bonuses that are inherently on different scales and are adjusted appropriately (reflective damage, SR, resistances, and movement speed), all of the auras give a straight bonus equal to the commander's Charisma modifier. Everything acts on the same scale. This means that +1 damage is valued as highly a +1 on attack rolls, +1 AC, +1 to all saves, +1 to a trio of skills, and +1 max AoO/round. Some of those comparisons are quite reasonable. Others, not so much. There needs to be an adjustment in the scaling between the various auras.

Back to the ability score-based scaling. Remember, these auras are applying party-wide. Taking the +all saves aura means that not only do you get divine grace, but everyone in the party gets it, too. Worse, they get to use your optimized Charisma score, rather than their own. Getting +Cha to all saves is fine. Giving a small to moderate bonus to all saves to the party is fine. Giving a big bonus to the whole party in a limited set of circumstances is fine. Combining the best of all of those is problematic. I'm just using saves as an example because it's easy to understand, easy to break down (all vs. Fort or Reflex or Will), and has a solid comparison point (divine grace @ paladin 2nd), but the same principle holds true to most of the other bonuses that auras can grant.

Now, one last thing about auras before I try to move on to cohorts. Some of the auras just produce way too big numbers at 1st level. This is strongly related to what I just talked about, but there are a few specific nuances to it I need to address. I've already discussed how +Cha can give bonuses across a party that are much larger than they should be, but most of what I've talked about have been about bonuses on a d20 roll. Some types of numbers, especially at the lowest of levels, have a much narrower band of reasonability. In this case, I'll have to dissect the specific auras that relate to this.
- Energy Shield: Reflective damage is cool. A little bit is neat and useful. Unfortunately, at 1st level, hit points are on a much narrower band than a d20s 1-20 range. Typically, hp goes from 6 up to about 15 at 1st level. You get a few outliers at CR 1 like the 29 hp sack of meat that is a 4 HD zombie, but on average you get 12-13 hp for CR 1 enemies (according to Optimization by the Numbers, and level 1 encounters generally deal with larger quantities of weaker, lower CR enemies, too. 18 Charisma deals 8 damage when hit, enough to take down the average CR 1/2 creature (6.6 hp) and takes off half the hp of the strongest one (16 hp). Your typical CR 1 enemy loses after hitting you twice, too. Your typical CR 1 enemy is doing noticeably less damage than that on each of its hits, too. Most enemies will only be averaging 4-7 damage per hit at CR 1. Even the 18 Str elite array orc fighter with a greatsword, sitting at the top of the damage curve, only deals 13 damage per hit, just over 50% more than you do reactively. If he doesn't drop you in that single hit, he's still going down to the second burst of reactive damage, so at best he gets a pyrrhic victory as you both bleed out. One of the deadliest enemies for the level has a non-zero chance of losing if you stand there and do nothing. Most any enemy that needs 2+ hits to drop you loses automatically.
- Toughness: Damage reduction is a difficult thing to evaluate. It comes up so rarely on the players' side, but even then usually in very small quantities. It has a similar issue of quantity as energy shield, being very potent at level 1 but losing that potency as higher level enemies come with higher amounts of damage. Small amounts of DR have very little effect, but the defensive benefits become more and more pronounced the higher DR rises until all or nearly all of the damage is prevented. It's similar to AC in this regard, except that instead of working on a 20-point scale, at 1st level DR typically works on a 4-7-point scale, (although outliers can go as high as the low 10s). Having DR 4 will halve or negate the damage that most CR 1/2 and CR 1 enemies deal. Even our 13 avg. damage orc from before loses significant enough chunk of damage to guarantee that he'll need at least 2 hits to drop your party's barbarian or warblade, and give very good odds for even the squishier commander with only a d8 for hp.



The exact effect of a cohort at 1st level is much harder to analyze, as it has numerous factors that must be taken into account. The numbers, too, are less intuitive. At 1st level, the arcane, divine, and psionic foci pretty much amount to 1 spell/power per day. It's not a direct thing, but we do kind of know at this point roughly how effective one casting of a wizard or cleric spell or a psion power is (roughly 50% chance to win one of the 4 encounters in a day is what I typically estimate it as). Not unreasonable for a companion-type class feature if the rest of the class is comparably potent (which it would be once 1st-level auras get addressed). Stealth and wild foci are mostly about skills, and since wild's wild shape doesn't show up at the level range we're evaluating, it can be safely ignored. A commoner 1 with +2 damage or 2/day invisibility is very reasonable as a 1st-level companion, so those actually seem quite fine at first glance.

Combat focus is where the numbers really start to come in. It adds a pile of them. Hit points, attack, damage, DR, a feat, and a maneuver. There's a lot to look at here, and I don't think I can do an effective, accurate analysis for this sort of thing without actually statting some things out. I'm getting a bit tired, and generating those numbers is a lot of work, so I'll come back to this later.

Before I go, though, I don't want to forget about some of the front-loading scaling I mentioned earlier. At higher levels, the cohort keeps to 2 levels behind the commander. That's fine. At 2nd-level, the cohort is 1 level behind the commander... warning signs, but not necessarily wrong. At 1st level, however, the cohort is right at the commander's level. Alert! With combat focus, you've got a 1st-level fighter for a pet at level 1. If the commander stays home and reads a book in bed, he's already contributed his share to the party at level 1, just with the cohort tagging along. It's similar to the druid with its animal companion. The commander has the same class chassis, even, just with auras instead of spells.

I'm not sure what the fix is, especially since a major part of the premise of the commander is having cohorts. My gut ideas are either to remove the cohort at levels 1 and 2, or to remove the focus entirely until level 2 or 3, leaving the cohort just as a CR 1/3 commoner at 1st level. I'm not sure how well those would work, and I suspect I'll know more and/or have other, better ideas once I get the deeper stats analysis done.

Also, the cohort level/effectiveness just scales unevenly at low levels. That's just off-putting. It's 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, .... Those three levels sitting at level 1 just don't work. As a creature unto itself, it's virtually impossible to make it appropriately powered at all three levels (commander levels 1, 2, and 3) despite the cohort staying identical across them.
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No face skills for me, got it!
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Hahaha same for mine! Yay for a party full of faces :D

Of course, my "face" will often be dragon-shaped.
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Don't really have a choice as a Commander - heavy Cha emphasis and a limited skill set pretty much pushes me in that direction.
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I built to be a face too, Strat, so if you want to invest in something else you can.
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Nans, Strat, any opinion on invisibility vs encyclopedia?

Other than being the party face, my guy has no skills at all. So as long as someone's covering it, it's okay. There should be fairly limited counters to invis at 1st level though, regardless of module we're playing.
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I'll be able to give +5 to stat checks and I have 1 rank in each of the monster skills except Dungeoneering.

I was thinking of taking the auto damage aura instead of healing or the +1 to attacks.

I think invisible has the edge at first level.

Okie dokes, I'll go with T'ien Lung then. And I can move a rank into Dungeoneering no problem.

EDIT: build updated.
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